Re: Safeworld as an alternative to this list

["Louis A. Turk" <louisaturk>]

Hi Mary and Rick,

At 12:59 PM 1/12/2003 -0600, you wrote:
> Speaking as one who spends more time answering NB list questions than 
> asking them (though I well remember the days when the reverse was true), 
> I've got real doubts about the value of a chat site as a way of learning 
> much about NB in general and XPL in particular.
>
> When I answer a question, I usually open NB, and spend a bit of time 
> hunting through the menus, or through my keyboard table, or through Help, 
> to check that the info I give is accurate; and quite often I test my 
> advice on a temp file. That all takes time, sometimes quite a bit of time, 
> and I don't want to spend that kind of time online, for the financial 
> reasons I outlined the other day.
They are two different tools, and each has its place.  It is like 
discussing the benefits of a phillips screwdriver compared to a flathead 
screwdriver.  When Safeworlds AltME was first introduced to the REBOL 
programming list I was not happy about it, as I felt it would divide the 
list, making it harder to find answers to problems.  I have learned, 
however, that it is really helpful to have _both_ a phillip and flathead 
screwdriver.  The tool you need depends on the job to be done!

I really don't like the word "chat" as it seems to imply pointlessness and 
profitlessness.  That type of chat I detest and have no time for.  So, for 
the rest of this message, by chat I mean useful, live, typed conversation.

Those of us on permanent broadband connections, definitely have an 
advantage over people using dial up connections when it come to chat.  But 
there is an advantage to chat even for those with dial up connections, in 
that some of those of us with broadband will leave the software running all 
the time.  If we see a group or individual name pop to the top and turn 
red, we know a new message has arrived.  If possible, we check immediately 
to see if someone is needing help.  Answers can be given almost 
instantly---two or three minutes is often all you have to wait on  the 
REBOL programmers Safeworld.  Problems that would take several days to 
solve on an email list could possibly be solved in minutes in a live 
environment like that found in NB Writers Safeworld.  For instance, if a 
message is not clear, you just immediately ask for clarification and get 
it.  It is when I need a problem solved right now, and not tomorrow 
evening, that I get impatient with regular email.

> Also, I find the chat format peculiarly irritating - sending, and then 
> having to wait and wait and wait for a reply. I'm a v. impatient person, 
> and twiddling my thumbs is my idea of how to have a bad time.
This problem, I believe, is magnified in your eyes because of your very 
legitimate financial concerns.  Also, it does take some time for people to 
type a response.  It is less noticeable when 4 or more people are chatting 
at once.

> Also, Louis has done a beautiful job of breaking possible NB topics into 
> categories - Lingua, Styles, etc. But I'm not sure whether such 
> subdivision is in the long term to everyone's benefit. I, who don't use 
> Styles, might never click on that category. But we all know how threads 
> drift. I might miss something useful - or might miss being able to 
> contribute something useful. The good thing about receiving list email is 
> that I can glance at the header and also at the message in the preview 
> pane. If the header says Styles, but the message has drifted to being 
> about keyboard files (not impossible!), then I'll read it. Tucked away in 
> a subheading of the Safeworld world, I might never see it.
I agree with you on this.  This is also my major complaint about the 
present version of AltME.  However, it is very likely that this is going to 
change drastically in future versions.  I expect subject headings to be 
added to future versions, and also amazing searching abilities.


> Finally, as to XPL. I've said I'll give a class (!) in it, and I shall, 
> but an hour on a chat line isn't going to get us very far, unless people 
> have done a bit of boning up in advance. XPL is in the end something you 
> learn on your own, by reading the manual (the CPG) and trying out the 
> examples. It has rules, and a vocabulary: not for nothing is it called a 
> programming *language*. It's rewarding, even at the simplest level;  it's 
> lots of fun to learn, esp. if you like structured thinking and puzzle 
> solving; and it's incredibly useful. But it really does take application.
This is where I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised.  The 
biggest complaint I have with Notabene is the lack of complete 
documentation.  You cannot self-study a subject that is not well 
documented.  My first version of NB came with a 3 inch thick loose-leaf 
manual (Loren Siebert knew how to write documentation).  It was 
great---very complete and clear---, and I was up and running in no 
time---even doing XPL programming.  But when the windows version arrived, 
the keyboard had been altered, most of my files could not be properly 
converted to the new format, and my XPL programs no longer worked!  And the 
Windows help files were (and still are) incomplete.  Let me tell you, this 
happened at a key time in my life when I didn't have time to relearn 
things, and I was extremely frustrated, and---to put it mildly---very 
unhappy about it.  I had spent weeks making computer programs to interface 
NB DOS with other programs, but since many NB file formatting codes were 
changed (or at least new ones added) for the Windows version, none of my 
programs now work.  And there has not been, so far as I know, even one word 
to explain the new deltas. So I have not a clue as to how my programs can 
be altered to make them work once again.  And to make matters worse, I was 
needing to make PDF files from my 4.5 files, and could not because they 
would not convert properly to NBWin.  In my opinion, _every_ feature of NB 
should be documented in detail---without exception.  We should be told the 
purpose of every delta.  And if the program cannot do something, that also 
should be so stated---don't just let people butt their heads up against a 
brick wall trying to do something that is impossible.  My personal opinion 
is that there would be at least 100 times more Notebene users if that 
original documentation had been keep up-to-date and comprehensive as 
versions changed.  Once the present version of Notabene has been completely 
rid of bugs, the people at Notabene should (before adding any more new 
features) work on producing the clearest, most comprehensive, and detailed 
users manual in the industry.

What I am trying to say is that in a situation like this, where the 
software is so elegantly designed that you just can't bear to switch to 
something else, but the documentation is either out-of-date or incomplete, 
there is no substitute for a knowledgeable teacher.  Just knowing where and 
how to start is the hard part.  The people on this list are motivated or 
they would not be here.  But if they are like me they are too busy to wade 
through vague, incomplete documentation.  I believe that at the end of your 
class there will be at least 500% more people on this list making---or at 
least using---XPL programs.

In these last few days approximately 50 people have asked for accounts on 
NB Writers Safeworld (5 or so as I was composing this email).  Some have 
left messages stating that they have not used NB since it became a windows 
program---for similar reasons to those I just mentioned.  They have been 
monitoring the list, however, hoping for something to happen to enable them 
to once again tap the power they know is in NB---and which they enjoyed in 
NB4.5---, but which in NBWin seems so hard to learn how to tap.  It seemed 
like all we had learned in NB4.5 was trashed in the NBWin.  Yes, I know we 
overreacted.  But the fact is, some of the functionality of NB4.5 has still 
not been ported to NBWin.  I was writing two books with NB4.5 using special 
formatting that even ver. 6.1 of NBWin cannot yet handle.  NBWin 6.1 is 
close to having all of 4.5's functionality, however, and also has some new 
features.  And I am needing to finish my books, so now I am trying to make 
things happen to speed things along---you are only seeing part of what I 
have been doing.  I do hope that I am not offending anyone by all this 
activity, but I need action now.  I need certain long known bugs that have 
been stalling my projects fixed now, and I need to learn more of the 
undocumented or poorly documented features of NBWin faster and now, as I 
have some very important major writing projects that can no longer be put 
off.

In addition to classes, I envision periodic live question and answer 
secessions with Steve Siebert, the designer of Notabene.  I have found him 
to be very helpful.  I believe that Notabene is truly a labor of love for 
him.  He is very dedicated.  I think live sessions with him will be 
beneficial to the long term outlook for Notabene.  I have a lot invested in 
Notabene, and I want the company making it to succeed---to prosper.  I want 
to see the user base increase manyfold for my sake and your sake.

> I don't think I'm just being Luddite about the chat format. The value of 
> the list, it seems to me, is that the format gives time for considered 
> responses, which are surely what people want?
>
> Mary
>
> Mary Bernard
> mary_bernard
Phone calls do not give time for "considered responses" either, but if you 
need an answer right now you do not send a carefully worded paper letter, 
but rather you pick up the phone.  Chat will not take the place of 
email.  But then email cannot take the place of chat.  You cannot have a 
live class with email.  All I ask is that final judgement be withheld until 
after your class and Mark's class have taken place.  It is when 20 or 30 
people are on-line at once that you begin to realize the power of live 
conversation.  I have personally attended classes this way, and I can tell 
you it works.  Just be prepared to answer lots of questions!

This is the last I will defend NB Writers Safeworld, however.  I don't have 
time to promote it like I have been doing this past week.  It will have to 
be good enough to stand on its own, and result in me learning more faster 
so I can get more writing done, or I want nothing further to do with 
it.  If the general consensus after our first two classes is that NB 
Writers Institute is a waste of time or is fracturing the list and doing 
more harm than good, then I can take it down in 2 seconds---and will. You 
are right that it will not take the place of this email list; at least not 
in its present form.  I think, however, that it will become very popular 
for certain purposes---especially live classes.  I, for one, am looking 
forward to your class!  I have no doubt at all that your class will be both 
great and greatly appreciated.

Louis