To: <masariku@egroups.com>
From: "Iwanov" <iwanov@indosat.net.id>
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:27:16 +0800
Subject: [Masariku Network] Transkrip Debat House of Lords 18-12-00
http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/ld199697/ldhansrd/pdvn/
lds00/text/01218-01.htm#01218-01_star0
18 Dec 2000 : Column 565
House of Lords
Monday, 18th December 2000.
The House met at half-past two of the clock: The LORD CHANCELLOR on the
Woolsack.
Prayers--Read by the Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells.
Molucca Islands
Baroness Cox asked Her Majesty's Government:
What is their response to reports of escalating conflict in the Molucca
Islands of Indonesia.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, We have repeatedly made clear to the
Indonesian Government our deep concern at the climate of tension and
violence which continues to reign in a number of Indonesian provinces,
including Maluku. My honourable friend John Battle raised the matter
personally with the Indonesian Foreign Minister on 12th December in the
margins of the EU-ASEAN Foreign Ministers' meeting. Representatives from EU
embassies in Jakarta visited Maluku from 12th to 14th October. They found
the situation in north Maluku to be much improved, but real problems
definitely remain in Ambon.
Baroness Cox: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that encouraging but
realistic reply. Of course, both Muslims and Christians have suffered in
this conflict. However, is the Minister aware that recently the Lasker Jihad
warriors have received reinforcements? They have stated that they will drive
all the Christians out of Ambon and that no church bells will ring in Ambon
this Christmas.
Will the Government therefore urge President Wahid, who is committed to the
principle of religious tolerance, to require the removal from the region of
all the Lasker Jihad warriors to ensure that his military forces provide
effective protection to both Muslim and Christian communities?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, as one would expect from somebody
with her expertise of the region, the noble Baroness asks a relevant
question about the activities of the Lasker Jihad in Maluku. The Government
have also heard reports of threats that church bells will be silenced in
Ambon this Christmas. Such reports are extremely worrying. Robust action is
needed to halt the violent activities of the Lasker Jihad and other groups
which perpetrate violence and destruction in Maluku. We believe that
President Wahid is committed to restoring order and promoting reconciliation
between the rival communities. The noble Baroness is right to point out that
he is committed to religious tolerance. The international community should
continue to support his efforts.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead: My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for
the concern she expressed
18 Dec 2000 : Column 566
in her Answer to the Question. In the light of that concern, will Her
Majesty's Government consider sending human rights monitors to the Moluccas
as a matter of urgency? Will they also consider whether or not emergency
relief will be granted to these unfortunate people?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, I can assure my noble friend that Her
Majesty's Government will continue to monitor the situation in Maluku
through the UN Resource Centre and the European Union Heads of Mission in
Jakarta. We would also consider a follow-up visit to the visit in October,
to which I referred in my first Answer. We would then address the matter
after that.
Lord Pilkington of Oxenford: My Lords, does the Minister consider that heads
of religious communities in the United Kingdom could help in mediation in
this matter? Have the Government approached the Church of England and the
Muslim communities in the United Kingdom? Positive action is demanded from
the Government because great suffering is involved. It may be that our
religious communities could assist in a small way.
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, I am sure that the noble Baroness who
asked the Question is better able to expound the various connections between
religious groups in this country and those in Indonesia than the Government.
We are doing everything we can to facilitate conflict resolution in
Indonesia, as we do in other parts of the world. It is up to religious
communities, NGOs and religious organisations of all kinds to make their own
direct links in the countries concerned, where relevant. However, I know
that I do not need to point out to noble Lords that that must always be done
with a high degree of delicacy so as not to fall foul of local
sensitivities.
Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, I appreciate the concern that the
Government have undoubtedly shown. However, can my noble friend confirm
that, unless there is an effective rescue operation, either by the
Indonesian Government or internationally, thousands of innocent people are
likely to be butchered? I appreciate that the Minister cannot answer for the
Home Office. However, can she chance her arm and assure your Lordships that
genuine refugees coming to this country will receive a sympathetic
reception?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, I never chance my arm at the Dispatch
Box. However, I am sure that genuine refugees arriving in this country do
indeed receive a sympathetic reception.
Lord Elton: My Lords, given the scale of what is happening in Indonesia, it
is clear that if that was happening in the Balkans we would be in there by
now. It is not sufficient merely to make representations to
18 Dec 2000 : Column 567
the responsible government. Will Her Majesty's Government urgently consider
taking this matter to the Security Council of the United Nations?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, the UN considered the situation in
Indonesia and pronounced on it. It is unlikely that an approach to the UN
Security Council at the moment will lead to any direct intervention inside
Indonesia. The international community has said again and again--for
example, in the European Union's statement of 28th November--that we fully
support Indonesia's territorial integrity but are in favour of a strong,
united, democratic Indonesia. We encourage the Indonesian authority to find
a solution to regional disputes through dialogue rather than by force. We
must remember that disputes exist in many parts of Indonesia, not just
Molucca. There are those in Aceh, East Timor and so forth. All that the
international community can do at the moment is support the democratic
regime of President Wahid and try to give him all the help we can in his
efforts to find peaceful solutions to the problems of his country.
Lord Howell of Guildford: My Lords, against the background of spreading
violence, is it not particularly sad and regrettable that the armed forces
are reported to be taking sides in a partisan way in some of the atrocities
and violence? Is it not even more regrettable, in the light of the
strongly-expressed EU concern in this regard and the European Union's code
of conduct on the export of armaments, that there are reports that the
French are supplying some of the armed forces with the weapons used in those
horrors? Will the Minister look into that?
Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale: My Lords, I cannot comment on the reports of
French arms being used. However, there is no evidence that UK-supplied
military equipment has been used for internal repression. We make every
effort to ensure that no licences are granted for any such arms or military
supplies.
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