Forwarded message:
From apakabar@clark.net Tue May 26 17:48:03 1998
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:46:12 -0600 (MDT)
Message-Id: <199805262146.PAA09176@indopubs.com>
To: indonesia-l@indopubs.com
From: apakabar@clark.net
Subject: [INDONESIA-L] Jim Lehrer Newshour: Reaction to Soeharto's Fall
Sender: owner-indonesia-l@indopubs.com
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 01:58:01 -0500
From: Jeffrey Winters <jaw@nwu.edu>
Subject: NewsHour with Jim Leher (Reaction to Suharto's Fall)
Copyright 1998 MacNeil/Lehrer Productions The NewsHour with Jim Lehrer
May 21, 1998, Thursday Transcript #6132
HEADLINE: End of an Era
BYLINE: ANCHOR: JIM LEHRER; GUESTS: BAMBANG HARYMURTI, Media Indonesia
Newspaper; DOUGLAS PAAL, Former NSC Staff; JEFFREY WINTERS, Northwestern
University; SIDNEY JONES, Human Rights Watch/Asia.
BODY:
JIM LEHRER: Good evening. I'm Jim Lehrer. On the NewsHour tonight full
coverage of Indonesia President Suharto's decision to resign; a look at
navigating by satellite; day three of the Senate's tobacco bill debate; and
a farewell conversation with former Postmaster General Marvin Runyon. It
all follows our summary of the news this Thursday.
NEWS SUMMARY
JIM LEHRER: President Clinton today welcomed the resignation of Indonesia
President Suharto.
PRESIDENT CLINTON: It now gives the Indonesian people a chance to come
together to build a stable democracy for the 21st century. I hope that the
leaders will now move forward promptly with an open and peaceful transition
that enjoys broad public support. The United States stands ready to work,
as we have with other nations in the past, to support Indonesia's leaders
and people as they purse democratic reform.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Clinton spoke at a Rose Garden ceremony, where he signed a
document giving U.S. approval to adding three new members of NATO. Suharto
made his announcement early today in a televised address from his
presidential palace in Jakarta. He turned over the post he has held for 32
years to Vice President Habibie, a longtime political ally. The new
president was sworn in immediately. Habibie spoke briefly, promising
political reform, but said it would come in stages. At the parliament
hundreds of student demonstrators occupying the building ended four days of
protest, cheering and dancing in the streets. We'll have more on the
Indonesia story right after this News Summary.
[section edited]
FOCUS - END OF AN ERA
JIM LEHRER: The Suharto resignation. We begin once again with a report from
Indonesia by Ian Williams of Independent Television News.
IAN WILLIAMS: It was a moment millions of Indonesians had prayed for: On
national television, the president whose autocratic and corrupt rule had
provoked a national uprising, announced his own demise.
PRESIDENT SUHARTO: [speaking through interpreter] I have decided to resign
my position as president of Indonesia.
IAN WILLIAMS: The pressure had become irresistible, and the reaction was
tumultuous. There was jubilation among the students occupying parliament,
an unrestrained outpouring of joy; the people had prevailed. There are wild
celebrations here, and already the call for the president to go has been
replaced with demands that he be prosecuted while at the palace, the
ex-president immediately moved aside for the swearing in of his
replacement; his deputy, B. J. Habibie. He's a Suharto protege, without
broad support and with dubious reformist credentials. But he was
immediately backed by the head of the army. That didn't dampen the spirits
at parliament or across the nation. But for many, the removal of Suharto is
only the first step.
STUDENT: After the election we can choose a new president, but for
temporary I am happy.
STUDENT: Between Habibie and Suharto, what's the difference? How could you
no students no students say Habibie for the president.
IAN WILLIAMS: While Indonesia's foremost opposition leader was more cautious.
AMIEN REIS, Muslim Opposition Leader: If the new cabinet consists of
corrupt people, ifs the new cabinet thinks this is nepotism, I will not
entrust Mr. Habibie's government.
IAN WILLIAMS: But it's unlikely that tens of thousands who celebrated in
cities across the nation today would tolerate merely cosmetic change. With
the economy in free fall and the continuing threat of unrest, much is at
stake. With that in mind, President Habibie went on national television
this evening to appeal for support. He gave no date for elections, but he
claimed his would be a clean government, free from corruption, collusion,
and nepotism precisely the features of the Suharto regime in which Habibie
played a central role. The ex-president left the palace today with his
eldest daughter, one of several offspring who'd enriched themselves during
their father's reign. The students continuing their festive occupation of
parliament tonight are demanding Suharto family and cronies be held to
account. It's a call that's likely to grow and onethe new president will
ignore at his peril.
JIM LEHRER: Some analysis of the situation now from Douglas Paal, a
National Security Council Asian specialist in the Bush and Reagan
administrations, now president of the non-profit Asia Pacific Policy
Center; Bambang Harymurti, executive editor of one of Indonesia's largest
newspapers, media in Indonesia he's in the U.S. on a year sabbatical.
Jeffrey Winters, an associate professor of political economy at
Northwestern University, specializing in Southeast Asia, especially
Indonesia. He was last in Indonesia in April. And Sidney Jones, executive
director of Human Rights Watch Asia. She's written extensively about
Indonesia and was last there in March.
Mr. Harymurti, in the final analysis, did Suharto have any choice but to
resign?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI, Media Indonesia Newspaper: I don't think so. I think the
core element of the Indonesian-ruling government has already decided some
way around killing of the students, that Suharto has to go. It's only a
matter of how and when.
JIM LEHRER: And did you think the army played any role in this at all?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Very much so.
JIM LEHRER: Do you think they also said it's time to go, sir?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Yes, definitely.
JIM LEHRER: Do you agree, Mr. Paal?
DOUGLAS PAAL, Former NSC Staff: I agree. There were plenty of signs of
divisions within the army but they seemed to have been unified in this area.
JIM LEHRER: Professor Winters, any choice?
JEFFREY WINTERS, Northwestern University: Well, actually I disagree that
Suharto has stepped down. I think what Suharto has done is stepped into the
background. He is now the puppet master. In all senses that matter Suharto
is still in charge, I believe. His key military backer and son-in-law,
General Prabowo, is still in place with 40,000 special forces troops. And
until Prabowo is removed Suharto still has considerable power.
JIM LEHRER: Ms. Jones, you agree with that, that Suharto stepped aside,
rather than down?
SIDNEY JONES, Human Rights Watch/Asia: No. I think he's gone. I think
anything is possible now that he's gone. I think it's a situation where, in
fact, Mr. Habibie may prove to be a surprise that even though nobody wanted
him, he has no support, and his arrival has been greeted with despair in
some ways by the students, he still can be a reformer perhaps, and the
signs are that the people he's looking for for his cabinet may be, in fact,
relatively good.
JIM LEHRER: Professor Winters, what do you think we should know about Mr.
Habibie?
JEFFREY WINTERS: Well, I mean, first of all, in his announcement he said he
was going to put an end to collusion, corruption, and nepotism, and I
believe Mr. Habibie, given the fact that his family owns more than 80
companies, that his family is spread out across the Indonesian system in a
nepotistic way, could really write a handbook on the subject. And so if he
really is going to challenge all those things, I think he ought to start at
home with his own family.
JIM LEHRER: So, in other words, it's more of the same is what you're saying?
JEFFREY WINTERS: Absolutely. The degree of continuity in this system is
really stunning. I mean, this is about the absolute minimum possible change
one could do and still have absolute continuity in the new order. The
problem for Indonesia is that there is no credibility with this new face of
the government, and it's precisely credibility that's needed to move
forward on the economy front.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Paal, what's your reading on the degree of change here?
DOUGLAS PAAL: Well, this is a first step of a series of steps that are
going to take place as the simultaneous crisis of the economy and society
and the political system work themselves through in this current crisis.
It's going to be the first of many chapters in a long story.
JIM LEHRER: You heard what Ms. Jones and Professor Winters said different
takes on Habibie. What's yours?
DOUGLAS PAAL: My take on Habibie is that he's not very qualified for the
job, and he lacks political roots to hold onto it. There is a possibility
that he'll perform miracles in the next few days, stun everybody, and
actually be a tiger who's changed his stripes. But you and I know how often
tigers do that.
JIM LEHRER: Right. So it would be a stunning thing
DOUGLAS PAAL: That's correct.
JIM LEHRER: in other words for that to happen. Okay. Mr. Harymurti, let's
go through now and tell us about Mr. Habibie. His relationship with Suharto
goes back a long time.
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Long time ago. Even the mother of Mr. Habibie is a close
friend of president when the president was assigned as a local commander in
Sulaweso and basically he live in front of the parents of Mr. Habibie's and
they become good friends.
JIM LEHRER: And Mr. Habibie was 13 years old at the time. He was a little
boy and Suharto actually lived in the house for a while, right, and then he
went on and became an engineer by training, correct?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: And basically it was Suharto who personally called him
back for a special job in Indonesia.
JIM LEHRER: In the government.
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: In the government, yes.
JIM LEHRER: And what has he been doing these last several years?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Well, he has been doing for so far he has been dealing
with the high-tech. He has this belief that by leap frogging into
high-tech, then that's the only way the country can, you know, become equal
to any other countries in the world, which was very expensive, which was
okay when Indonesia still earned a lot of money from oil before the oil
prices, but now that is the question mark.
JIM LEHRER: Does he have any political base of his own?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Well, he has a capability of turning foe into friends. I
mean, one of the interesting figure is Amin Reis, which is the leading
opposition. Partly he became big because in the early times he was
protected by Habibie.
JIM LEHRER: And what's Habibie's relationship with the army? Do you know
anything about that?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Well, he started that relations with the army because
basically he took over many of military companies in defense production.
For instance, the companies now which used to belong to the air force,
Indonesian air force, but now it belong to several companies; the navy yard
now is not the navy yard anymore.
JIM LEHRER: You agree with Mr. Paal and Professor Winters that for him to
really make any changes, it would take a stunning it would be a stunning
development?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Not only for him; anyone else. I mean, Indonesia is
facing a serious, serious problem even if, you know, you take Einstein, or,
you know, the most genius of them all, the Indonesian economy is still
going to go down for a while, because the Chinese have left they left with
their capital and less capital means less economy. And less economy means,
you know, you get in worse condition. And in the same time then you have to
take care of all the subsidy in order to, you know, fulfill your commitment
with IMF, and that means price increases. And with the situation where the
student thought they can always topple a government by demonstrating, this
is a very explosive issue.
JIM LEHRER: Sure. Well, Ms. Jones, let's go back to you now. Why are you
slightly optimistic at least? In other words, the possibility that Mr.
Habibie may surprise some people, what do you base that on?
SIDNEY JONES: Well, I was totally pessimistic last night when I first heard
the announcement because I agree with Jeff Winters that he seems like a
complete crony of Mr. Suharto. But, in fact, it looks as though there may
have been an alliance worked out before he actually took office, and if
that's true, an alliance with the army and with some of the reformists, if
that's true, he may be able to put in place at least for an interim period
a group of people that may have the confidence of different sectors of the
population. And from what I've seen of the new cabinet list and it's still
in the process of being drafted he's reached out to the universities with
the minister of education, someone who was very supportive of the students.
He's reached out two different Muslim organizations. He's reached out to
the NGO sector. And in his first remarks he talked about in trying to
re-establish the rule of law and even reviewing the single law that's most
hated by all Indonesians, which is the anti-subversion law under which most
political prisoners have been arrested, those are good signs. And so even
though I was pessimistic last night I've got alot more hope this morning.
JIM LEHRER: What about you would agree with Mr. Harymurti that no matter
who's the president it's going to be a difficult task ahead, correct?
SIDNEY JONES: It's going to be an enormously difficult task ahead. And I'm
not sure that Mr. Habibie is going to last through the entire period. But
at least this is a respite, and it's an important respite from the turmoil
that we've seen over the last two weeks.
JIM LEHRER: Will you grant it's a respite, Professor Winters?
JEFFREY WINTERS: Well, I think what's missing in this discussion is that
earlier this week there was talk by Suharto of forming a national team for
reform and there was talk of a schedule for holding free and fair
elections. All of that discussion has been dropped. The mandate now for
President Habibie is to play out the entire five-year term of President
Suharto. The word yesterday was that he will step or that when there are
elections, it'll be in 2003.
SIDNEY JONES: But that's not going to happen.
JEFFREY WINTERS: Well, what hasn't been laid out is how the process of
coming to elections is going to happen, and Mr. Habibie, himself, hasn't
mentioned it. I think that's the key. Indonesia is not going to have a
credible government for the purposes of its own legitimate authority at
home, as well as for the purposes of convincing those who control
investment resources to return, until their election.
JIM LEHRER: Do you believe, Professor Winters, that the people of
Indonesia, the students and others who have been behind this revolt, will
give Habibie sometime to at least try to do something, or do you think that
demonstrations and protests will continue?
JEFFREY WINTERS: I actually expect the demonstrations and protests to
continue, because I think Habibie -- I expect Habibie to fail, because I
know from where he comes, and someone was talking about changing stripes a
moment ago. I haven't seen many instances of that in history. Right now the
students are in a bit of confusion. I mean, it is no small accomplishment
to have someone who just two weeks ago upon departing to Cairo said he will
be in power until 2003, to have him actually step into the background as he
has done. And there's a lot of celebration about that. But the people of
Indonesia did not pour out into the streets to celebrate. They saw nothing
to celebrate. And there are a large number of students who decided they're
not going to leave the parliament building, and they scratched out the name
on their banners that said, "Down with Suharto," and changed the name to
"Down with Habibie." So I think there is a very serious possibility of
continued unrest and continued protest.
JIM LEHRER: Mr. Paal, continued unrest and protest?
DOUGLAS PAAL: I think so. We'll have a short-term respite as people are
disorganized and reacting to what happened, but the monumental problems
that Indonesia faces require much more broad-based political solutions.
People are being asked to make massive sacrifice in this society, and to do
so, you have to have some sense of participation by the public in the
choice of those sacrifices. And in Indonesia, they've just had a taste of
power in the streets. And they're not going to yield that, I think, anytime
soon. We'll be back in the streets in time. Habibie will be a transitional
figure, in my view, unless, of course, miracles happen, and I don't expect
that to be the case.
JIM LEHRER: What about Ms. Jones' point that she takes some hope at least
in this provisional cabinet, at least the names that are being circulated?
DOUGLAS PAAL: I'd be astounded if he didn't have some optimistic sounding
figures come into the cabinet, because he has to show something is new and
something is different. But when you get back to that functioning of the
system, the system is still the same old system, as Professor Winters has
said and it's not broadly based; it doesn't have a lot of limber people who
can respond to market forces. It has a president who's particularly famous
for not wanting to respond to market forces.
JIM LEHRER: So what it's going to take reform from the top to the bottom of
the whole system?
DOUGLAS PAAL: It's going to take a long-term rolling reform of the
political system of how the economy works. And in the meantime there's
going to be a lot of suffering in Indonesia.
JIM LEHRER: Are the people going to be patient and see that through, Mr.
Harymurti?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: It very much depends on how Habibie will play his cards.
One thing that I share with Sidney Jones in this case is Habibie has this
unique capability to turn people who's angry with him, or hate him, into
his camp. I can
JIM LEHRER: Do you know him? Do you know him?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: I know him personally.
JIM LEHRER: What's he like, just personally?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: He's a person who can convince you he's a very
enthusiastic person. He can come to a room full of young students and make
everybody misty-eyed because of his dream of how Indonesia can become
JIM LEHRER: Is he a good speaker?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: He's a good speaker, very, very nationalistic. He can
you know raise the practicalisms of the people, but sometime he has a
tendency to belong-winded to make, you know, monologue. But, you know, he
has been able to make people who has been basically a dissident and has
been given no right no civil rights whatever by the Suharto regime and he
came to them and into normal people and also 50 for instance and also you
know Reis very much in the periphery, but he came to the center basically
because Habibie provide the pathway. So I am given that there is no
economic problem, I'm sure Habibie has a good chance to you know to pull it
through, but with this economic problem, it's very hard, especially with
Suharto leaving, there are high hopes that things are going to change
JIM LEHRER: What about Professor Winters' point that what did you say,
Professor Winters, that his family has in-roads into 80 companies just like
Suharto's?
JEFFREY WINTERS: His family has 80 companies. His brother his wife his
children his relatives his extended relatives all hold their position. One
of his brothers was the ambassador to the U.K. Their entire he is the
product of the very thing he now says he's going to challenge.
JIM LEHRER: Do you think he'll change that, Mr. Harymurti?
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: Well, I think he will probably make it less, you know,
less, fissile but I think the nepotism is not going to be as great problem
as let's say in the United States because, for instance, those students
of--six of them were shot dead. I mean, this is a university that you know,
member of the students from the jet set, from the elite, and most of them
somehow become there because of nepotism.
JIM LEHRER: All right.
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: So it's too many dirt to share around if you want to
really clean up the nepotism.
JIM LEHRER: All right.
BAMBANG HARYMURTI: And so it's not that black and white, I don't think so.
JIM LEHRER: We have to leave it there. Thank you all four very much.